Online Course Creation: Align Learning Intentions To Positive Impact with Nina Everflow

Meg Brunson: I am very excited very excited to have Nina Everflow with us today. Nina is a lifelong activist of joyous rebellion.

Her passion for personal transformation guides her unique approach to developing learning environments inclusive of diverse people, places, and platforms. I love that. Through her content design agency Everflow Consulting, she supports purpose-driven business leaders and online educators to develop clear, compelling and results-oriented content through an inclusive lens. Serving industry disruptors around the world Everflow Consulting's course content and development offerings explored new applications of diversity in methodology, power, and voice. For holistic growth online, she is a plant lover, musical theater enthusiast and seeker of the softest vegan cookie.

Nina lives on the unceded lands of the Monacan, now known as the farmlands of South Central Virginia, US with her multiracial family.

Whew. Nina, I love that introduction, so

Nina Everflow: thank you

Meg Brunson: I already wanna talk about like Hamilton and

Nina Everflow: right? And cookies.

Meg Brunson: And cookies. Although I have to admit, I ha I'm not sure that I've had a vegan cookie, I just eat them as they come. Are you vegan?

Nina Everflow: No I, not a hundred percent, but around baked goods. I love like good vegan baked goods because there's just, they're just the, ah, so many they can be made like so delicious.

Meg Brunson: What makes the vegan cookie better than a regular cookie.

Nina Everflow: Ah,

Meg Brunson: these are the important questions.

Nina Everflow: Well, well, , these are the important questions. Well, because I have a sensitivity to egg that I can't really enjoy egg-based cookies in the way that most people who don't have such sensitivities to them. So the delight of having the softness that egg puts into cookies , but not have the. Belly upset that I typically experience afterwards is awesome.

But I think also just like the flavoring, I think there's just like, they ha- be- being vegan. You get to play around with other areas of not just filling it up with sugar or just the, you know, your basics, but it's more just like, ooh, let the cinnamon come through a little bit more. Or the chocolate or the nuts or whatever it is Right.

To really like, you know, just create that. Sensory experience, and that's what I really love about good vegan food. And my absolute favorite restaurant for anyone who's ever traveling to Asheville, North Carolina go-to plant. It is the most amazing culinary experience of vegan cuisine you will ever have.

And we highly re.

Meg Brunson: Oh, well that is good to know. My mom lives not too far from there, so

Nina Everflow: Oh my gosh.

Meg Brunson: If I'm visiting her .

Nina Everflow: Yes, please go take the trip. It's delightful. It's delightful.

Meg Brunson: Well, I'm sure this is something you did not think I didn't know we were gonna be talking about being in cookies on this call.

Let's switch directions a little bit. I wanna start with, could you define, let us know what exactly is an instructional designer?

Nina Everflow: Yeah. Yeah. So the simple way to describe it is that there is a, when you're thinking about training, when you're thinking about even a classroom, an academic classroom you are in, you are entering either physically or virtually into an environment that has been curated for you to have some exchange and absorption of knowledge and skills.

And so a curricular. Curriculum designer is someone who is deeply interested in cultivating that environment. And so we are thinking about what is, like literally, if you're thinking about people in a physical room, what's on the walls, what's in the space, how are they seated, what are the audio visual things, right?

Like what's the access to restrooms and food, right? Like all of those environmental concerns. All of the, than the pieces around the content and all of the pieces around delivery of the content. And so, as an instructional designer, you're really creating a multidimensional experience for people to really come through.

Not just having heard something but gained something. That's always the win for us. And so, I have spent my career really as a practitioner. I actually, I didn't go to college in this area. And that is another story we'll probably touch on at some other point, but Entered this space. So curious about the exchange that happens when adults come together to to really change themselves.

Some become the next version of themselves, and how do we cultivate environments that are really going to be conducive to that? So it's not so much about how can I enter a space? You know, pour knowledge into your brain. That's not my approach to learning or instructional design. It's really about how can I cultivate an environment that's really going to help you already know how to become the next version of yourself.

Cuz I can't control what's going on in your brain. I can provide some offering, right? And I can set you up in the best way that I know how, but it's up to. To actually do the growth. So, so that's what instructional designers are really all about. They're paying attention to the content, the environment, and the experience of a learner stepping into to change themselves.

Meg Brunson: It's fascinating, and as you described that, it's like, well, of course all of that stuff matters. Like, I'm thinking back to like my like college experiences, my high school exp like just when you've gone to like different workshops, it's a library and yeah, like of course all this stuff matters.

Like you ha you wanna be able to use the restroom if you need to use the restroom and not get distracted by what's on the walls.

Nina Everflow: Right, right. Yeah. And somebody really thought through all of those pieces. And I wrote recently in a newsletter about a time I went through a training where they intentionally made the training room far away from the restrooms on purpose, far away from the break rooms, far away from food and water because they were attempting to control the environment as because there was a belief.

You know, be distancing those pleasures so you could focus more. And my approach was not, you know, would not agree with those kind of decisions, but people do make those kind of decisions on purpose. So you have extremes, right, about like what people believe the right environment is to learn. But the, and then they make choices based on those beliefs.

Meg Brunson: And I've heard some of that. I like, I've heard about like, big guru type. bro- marketer type, the person I'm thinking of, right? , who , who they make the rooms like cold.

Nina Everflow: Yes.

Meg Brunson: For reasons yeah, reasons that I'm not fully aware of, but I know there's reasons. Right? Right. And they're very, it's very manipulative, like how they control.

So again, like with most, you know, I always try to evaluate everything through that equity centered lens. And I feel like you have to determine. , are you controlling the environment for the good of the people? Who are there? Or for the good of your business, right? That people versus profits.

So is that kind of. Is that kind of what you've, what you saw too?

Nina Everflow: Absolutely. Absolutely. And so, I spent a significant part of my career as a as a consultant who in, well, I worked for a firm who, and we were the consultant to the United Nations University system. And so we were literally designing their leadership development training for the food agencies.

There's these three big food agencies that the UN delivers support and funding through across the world. And and those agencies had a very limited definition of what a leader is. Abraham Lincoln, Winston Churchill, George Washington, right? Like that was the epitome of how we're gonna show up and do our job and lead the world to greater wealth and prosperity.

And it took a lot to point out to them. Those were antiquated definitions that were no longer valid. To the problems that people were experiencing to the, to those not only their employees were experiencing, but then to folks on the ground, right? In these humanitarian disaster areas that they were being served.

And so if we're going in with a Winston Churchill kind of approach, we get a certain result. Versus when we go in with a different kind of approach, you know, a akin to you know, other amazing leaders who we've seen come up mostly through the global south. And so that, that is definitely what helped to.

Change my trajectory about no long, about really disturbing the traditions around instructional design, about questioning, how we're defining what is needed in the environment, what is needed from my methods as a facilitator or trainer, how I'm utilizing power. Because there are strong power dynamics that play in the teaching environment.

And most of the literature will tell you to hoard it because most of the literature comes from white men , who love to hoard power. So they do it in the teaching, in the classroom too. And I think we can really play around with that. I mean, sometimes, It's necessary. And other times you probably get better results when you don't.

And so, so those are the things the questions that I like to dance around with so that we're creating environments again, that are about helping people see a new version of themselves and less about the spotlight on me and my expertise, drilling it into who you need to become.

Meg Brunson: Now, I feel like it's very clear to me how this is applied in.

Physical space. Can we, can you explain how it translates into the online space? I feel like a lot of people, especially in my community, are online entrepreneurs who are. Trying to teach people online and, you know, proximity to bathrooms isn't Yeah. An issue for them. Yes. So what are some of the considerations and how does it apply for the online entrepreneurs?

Nina Everflow: Yeah, so I think, you know, it starts with being clear about your values. And so what values do you want to demonstrate in your choices? And so for online spaces, and I've been an. Course creator. I mean, that title feels very new, but I've been a corporate trainer creating e-learning and hosting and facilitating virtual programs for over a decade.

So I know this space very clear very well, and I know the instructional technology that's available now that's getting better and better. So we have a more variety of options of which to create and cultivate. Digital environment. So again, starting with values. So one of my core values, for example, is around supporting black-owned businesses wherever I can.

And so that led me to choose an online platform that was owned and operated by a black man. And that led me to support other minority owned or women owned, you know, software. That is then integrated into the process of running an online course, right? So again, like just basics in terms of. Digital environment.

But I think more, even more importantly is some of the things around visuals, storytelling, music, all of those demonstrates our awareness of our cultural heritage. And so when we are not paying attention to how we are using those cultural icons other people of color recognize. That we may not have some awareness of what we're doing.

And so I think for, particularly for white folks hosting online courses and programs, the way that they are marketing the images that they're choosing, the words that they're utilizing, right in their marketing And the stories that they're telling that may center, you know, their experience as the norm, those are the things that really we can start to question and play differently with to acknowledge and be more explicit about.

What kind of power we are displaying in the, in those ways. So that too makes a difference to your environment. And then I think as a third example, once you are in the space with your people, whether you're using Zoom or some other video conferencing how are you utilizing time and what percentage of time do you have the mic.

That is another very clear and easy to change opportunity, right about shifting the dynamics of what tradition has told us to do in training situations versus how we can interrupt that and my approach. I typically refer to it as a liberated learning approach is that we free ourselves. Like quite literally, like, you know, the dominant approach is 90 minutes, the instructor is teaching, and then 10 minutes, right?

Is q and a, and it's just like, let's disrupt that. That's let's free ourselves from that model. There are many others to choose from, and most of them get better results. So what else can we play with in order to help people again, use. the space in order to become that next version of themselves.

Meg Brunson: Goosebumps. Awesome. Amazing. I wanna ask one question. Can you share the course platform that you're using that's black owned?

Nina Everflow: Yeah. Miestro is black owned. There's another one. I will try to link back to you. I will find it.

But then one second one.

Meg Brunson: I was just curious cuz I wasn't aware of that. I know Calendly is a black-owned business. Yes. Which I loved learning. Yeah. But I'm always interested in expanding, you know, my knowledge of who's owning.

Nina Everflow: Exactly right. Right. And it may not be right that you want to choose that.

Maybe it just doesn't have all the features that you need for your programming. I get that. So then just go research what platforms, what program software who, how, what is their approach right to social justice. So that's another filter way that you can do it, cuz I also work a lot with with Podia, with Mighty Networks, with ThriveCart, right?

And these organizations are run by people who have been explicit in their progressive views. And so I'm not gonna choose Kajabi because I can choose one of these other platforms that has really you know supporting the energy that I want to see more of in the world.

Meg Brunson: I am with you a hundred percent.

I jumped around from. Platform to platform and then. Didn't look back once I found . I'm using FG Funnels, which is not black owned, but it is woman owned. Yes, female owned. Yes.

Nina Everflow: And yeah. Value align. Let them, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So I think that's the power, is that it's value aligned and that, you know, the people receiving that money, energy are going to funnel it in other ways that are going to be in alignment to your values.

That's really what we're doing. .

Meg Brunson: Now I'm gonna jump to a couple different points you mentioned and ask a couple questions because I feel like it was so, that section was so rich that we could go back and just listen to it again. But can you give us any of your insights on marketing best practices?

I know here I am, right, is a white person and I understand how easy it is to center ourselves because that's what we know. Right. When we're writing our marketing copy, you know, we're speaking from our past, how do we shift that to be inclusive without appropriation?

Nina Everflow: Yeah. Yeah. You know what, I think at the heart of this question of how to decenter oneself, it's, I hear. How can I take more risk and how can I demonstrate my courage? To to take those risks, those social risks, cuz that's what, right in the marketing realm, that's what we're doing. We're taking a social risk cuz some people maybe may have reactions right.

To whatever we're writing. And so what I would say in, in, as a alternative to writing a story about one's self , you know, centering oneself to write a story about what you're learning. In this space, in the practice of anti-racism, in the practice of allyship and that you take a risk there to show true vulnerability, right in do doing a wrong step, upsetting someone.

Feeling insecure and embarrassed, right? All of that. Because it does two things. It does. First for you in just your process of writing it out more mindful about what was going on in my body as I was going through this experience. Right. As as I was just reading in

Resmaa Menakem's book My grandmother's Hands. So he's a therapist, he's a black man therapist who works with white, black and police officers in terms of healing generational trauma in each of those populations. And and so, so much of what he writes about is that we are. We are afraid of each other and we're seeking safety in the wrong things, right?

White people are seeking safety through the control of black bodies. Black people are seeking safety through the navigation of white emotions so that they don't get too spiked and go crazy and hurt them. Right? Police are seeking safety, in the sense of just like trying to control situations and always have the upper hand of violent power.

And yet, you know, all of us, what we want in our core is safety. And so if we want that, then we need to start doing the psychological, emotional work of like, when do I feel safe in my body? And I have to. Interrupt these conditionings that have told me black people aren't safe or white women aren't safe, or you.

Being in the dark in the street at night isn't insane, right? Like, I have to work through all the stories that I've learned about that. And so you have to write about it, you have to think about it. You have to reflect or talk to other people about that process of be, of, in, you know, the internal processing.

And I think we should be doing that in our marketing because it's really important then for to, in, in terms of creating safety for other people. So white people can use their power. And take social risks by being more vulnerable in that space. I think it's a really powerful thing that demonstrates to people of color, Hey, I'm working through my shit.

And I'm here and you, and I want you to know that I'm not, and I'm not seeking perfection because I understand that's another characteristic of white supremacist culture. So it really is like a two folded benefit. And I also think that it's so critically important for us to reimagine, like what's on the other side of being.

Anti-racist in our messaging or values aligned, right? Whatever we're, however we're describing it, that it's not just talking about the beast and how bad the beast is and how horrible of the things that the beast is doing, but it's also about how can I tap into what is possible? On the other side or what I imagine we will be doing, and and I feel like this one gets into that gray space of spiritual bypassing, and I'm not really naming.

It adds that, because I think spiritual bypassing just says, I don't wanna do that yucky internal stuff that all that I just described. So I'm just gonna hop over to we are all one, we bleed the same, and you know, I'm gonna stay in my love and light. So that's not what I'm describing here. What I'm trying to describe is the tangible systems that need to be reimagined, right?

And so when I think about folks who. Writing in their marketing about bro marketing, about toxic masculinity, showing up in marketing about the ways in which misogynoir shows up in marketing in our, you know, use of images of different bodied women, right? And so it's just like it's calling that out in order to help others see it in their universe.

So that we can name, what, if that didn't exist, what would replace it? I want to really describe like marketing that then is aligned to. Heart centeredness marketing that's aligned to safety and belonging marketing that's aligned to storytelling of deep truths that are, you know, vulnerable and complex and nuanced instead of superficial and, you know, kinda whitewashed and practicing more of that.

But in full. Kind of ownership and awareness that there we still have some space to to. Clean up to engage with as we move towards that. So those are the two kind of things I think more I would love to see more of. Right. Firstly about owning you know, that the vulnerability to take risks and be explicit in how, what you're learning and how you're tripping up.

Because learning is a risky thing like I, I mean, I've been in this learning business for a long time and I can tell you when peop- when shit hits the fan and you're faced internally with that choice making about, I could do what I always used to do about my habits, responding to this situation. Or I could do something different, right?

It's risky to take that choice and do that new thing. And yet that's what we're inviting folks to do over and over again, is to grow and keep growing and make those little micro changes. So, I hope that gets at what your original question was about, like it did, does it look like ,

Meg Brunson: and I appreciate you taking the time and the energy to kind of break that down and give us another perspective on how to.

marketing in that way. The last thing I wanna touch on, and again, this goes back a couple questions was you talked about how in traditional educational environments, you know, it's like 90 minutes of the teacher talking at you , and then 10 minutes of q and a. And I just wanna.

I just won't agree with you. I'm in a course right now and it's beautiful. We meet weekly for 90 minutes. , but I, the instructor barely talks. Like we're, we have a little homework to do, like a, an article to read, a video to watch ahead of time.

, and then it's a discussion. Yeah. On what we saw, what we've learned, what we think. You know, and relating it back to ourselves. , and the instructor's more of a facilitator and brilliant when she does speak, but it's more about us. Talking to each other and among each other.

. So I just wanted to present That the difference, like you talked about, there were many different ways and I just wanted to present that because it's been a transformational experience for me. I've been in that process, in that course since August. And it's Oh, wonderful. It's truly an incredible space.

So, Just something else.

Nina Everflow: Glad you had that experience. Yeah. Yeah, same here. Like I've had so many of those and I'm glad that it's been a beautiful experience for you because I do very much believe in the power of shifting from a trainer to a facilitator. It's a different skillset and it's a different way of holding space and it's a different environment that then is cultivated for people.

And I feel like it's such a gift when more of us trainers, right? And teachers move towards on the, and it's just another step on the spectrum, right? About like then how to facilitate a conversation that can be so powerful. Yeah. I mean, I think that's, there's so many ways the use of breakouts, the use or breakout rooms, right?

The use of storytelling and And just, you know, just the way that we can learn from visuals and items. And like, I, I ha I've used to use a lot of like activities to talk about, you know, share with us how you felt in that moment by describe by. Showing in the camera an object in your room, right?

Like, we're in the west, we're so disconnected from thinking outside of linear, analytical ways. And so how can we stretch ourselves to get, to utilize those muscles? Cuz the rest of the world is, it's. Not as lean in that way, in that capacity. So, so I think there's, yeah, there's lots to play with and like you said, like it, as a participant, as a learner you feel more connected not only to the facilitator trainer, but to the others in the space.

And that gift of relationship building, that's going to add so much more than what me as a single trainer can do, can.

Meg Brunson: And it definitely, cuz you can, that's one way that you can decenter yourself. Yes. Because you're learning Yes. From other people and other people's experiences and Right.

Like there are days that I show up that I'm like, I don't really have anything I can talk about myself. And that's fine.

Nina Everflow: Yeah,

Meg Brunson: yeah. You don't have to talk in every class. That's everything I've had to unlearn. Right. Like, I don't have to be the one.

Nina Everflow: You do not. You do not. Right.

Meg Brunson: But we were raised thinking these things.

Nina Everflow: We were Absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, yeah, to not take that personally. Right. To not think that is like your flaw and just you No, it was conditioned and reinforced by a lot of educators. Community members. Right? Yeah. Yeah,

Meg Brunson: for sure. Now, you talked a little bit about the difference between like a teacher and a facilitator.

I know you also talk a lot about the difference between telling teaching and training. Can you Yeah, break that down a little bit because I think this is also kind of one of those. Aha moments when you Yes. When you think about those three different words.

Nina Everflow: Definitely. Thanks for that question. So, I have a cute little quiz on my website that asks, are you a teller, teacher or trainer?

Because I've got a, had a lot of good conversation about this. So the way that I define a teller is more of someone who inspires, someone who tells stories, someone who is you know, the. Characteristic of a TED talk, right? It is one direction, speaker to audience. There are no q and a or any kind of interaction, right?

And it's, and it could be, you know, similar to a an imam or a minister, right? Like there is a delivery of. A message that could inspire and motivate people to go do things. But it's more so the you know, gifting the possibility. And you need the possibility, like if someone has never reimagined themselves in, you know, in being able to.

You know make a million dollars in their lifetime. You need to hear from someone who has said it's possible. It actually is possible for, you know, for that to happen. So it is crucial, but it's not, you know, it has limitations. So the next step then would be to move to towards teacher. And a teacher is one who is then creating more of that environment to not only deliver.

That it is possible, but here are the steps. Here's a process, here's a template. Here is something that you can utilize, some kind of tool that you can try to apply to your life to get there. Right? So that might include a book of watching, a video of something of more stories about how it's possible or how some other people took the steps, right, to become, to bring more income into their life.

So that's what teachers do. They gather the resources and outline a process, and so that too is incredibly useful, required really for to help people. Figure out how to get that next version of themselves. And there's a next step, which would be trainer cuz the trainer does what the other two do, but they also hold space for you to practice.

So you want to practice putting into into work, right? About the steps of the process. So maybe the first step is to stop spending over your means. I'm gonna hold you accountable to not spend over your means as you build these other income flows or whatever it is that you're working on, right? Like, I'm going to hold you accountable for demonstrating to me that you are practicing these elements, we're gonna have a conversation so that you can begin to practice learning, boundaries, saying no to other people or other experiences that aren't in line with what this goal is for yourself, right? Like those are kind of the practice opportunities that the trainer is gonna focus on as you build capacity in these new skills and behaviors.

So often trainers. Equated with presenters, which are actually talkers and tellers. Right? And that's not what training is real training is more of an experiential exercise to practice skills. And like I said, we were mentioning before about facilitator would be the next step over, right? Because then they're not even talking so much about holding space for you to practice.

They want, you want to just hold the space for you to just. Be in the process of it. Cuz now you kind of have enough knowledge that then it's about how can I become? And that is a whole other skillset but also a whole other way of framing the environment.

Meg Brunson: Now it would seem to me. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem to me that there's a place for all of these things, right?

Like , not necessarily that everybody needs to start at Teller, then go to teacher, and then become a trainer. There's a place for all of these. But I would also think that there's probably some, like you said, some confusion about what your program actually is, and we need to be clear about that because that needs to be clear in our marketing, right?

So that people aren't coming in. Yes. Expecting one thing. Yes. And , even if it's unintentional, is the quiz, how we do that, right? Is that

Nina Everflow: yeah. Absolutely. Because it just takes you through a couple of questions, you know, based on your last training or learning event what kinds of things were you doing?

How were you using time? Who spoke the most? How did you design, you know, What kind of visuals did you use? Right? The types of questions you were asking. All of those things can be deduced to okay, actually your outcome was you were, you had set up to present, which is a teller kind of activity. And yes, I agree with you a hundred percent.

That's why I want people to really understand the nuances because we're not really creating training when we're doing a marketing webinar. It's a teller activity. Marketing, right? You're teaching tele, you know, not even teach, well, maybe a little bit of teaching, right? If you have a process or a little freebie template that you want to give people but you're definitely Most often, I guess, not training people to practice that during this, the time that you're with them.

So let's be honest. Let us be honest and let us be in integrity and be able to match expectations with what the results are. And I think it's really important to, to, to. To match outcomes and results to what your design actually sets them up to do. Cause a lot of people say their results are going to be, your life will be transformed.

You'll be able to make a million dollar right. Like these really, when really you're, all you're doing is setting me up to be inspired. Which isn't a bad thing, but that's really my only outcome after watching you for 60 minutes on this TED Talk or whatever it is. Right? And so that's problematic that we're, we don't understand how to align results with our designs.

And I, I think that is dishonest really when we start to think about it and we can clean it up. Like it's somewhat ease, useful to know how to be in, in better alignment.

Meg Brunson: Yeah. Like it's okay if your whole process is A to Z, it's okay to just teach or tell or train A to C. But you wanna be clear that they're not gonna get that the full benefit.

They're just gonna get a portion of the benefit.

Nina Everflow: Right. Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Meg Brunson: Now I have a question that , I always fall into this trap of, Well, I wanna teach them everything. Right? Like I just, and this is true, if you're interested in my knowledge, I just wanna give it all to you.

But that's not helpful. How do we know when enough is enough? How do we know when we should stop? , so that we're not overwhelming our people.

Nina Everflow: Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, on some level the answer to this question is experiential. Like the more you train and teach and tell, right?

The more that you're in these relationships with people to help them through a process, you'll get better at knowing how much they have capacity to absorb. But I do think that on. From the beginning, if our outcomes are honest and if we're really clear about what it is they're going to be able to do differently after they're with you, not what ripple effect that might have, but what actual skills will they have after they're with you for 60 minutes or six months?

They'll be they'll have different kinds of skills than what they have right now. Figure out what those are. They shouldn't be more than three to six of them really. So they're very tangible things that could be measured. So things just like, they'll be able to demonstrate how, you know, the three core essentials of writing sales page copy.

Right. They'll be, because they'll, they're demonstrating they know what they are and they have to write them. In the process of you being with them, right? So, so those kinds of things that you, that they would be able to say, yes, I did that, I proved that I could do that, and it's better than it was before.

So once you have that clear list, which traditionally instructional designs call learning objectives, but. In the realm of entrepreneurship, people use learning objectives in very different ways. So , it's not so, I don't see people putting anyway, they, they're not using it in the way that I come from using it.

But what it's really about is like, what are the skills, what are the behaviors that can be measured before and after that are different. Because they took this learning experience. So once you have those set, then you know that you don't have to put in the whole encyclopedia because you're just like, I'm just trying to do these five things and out of these five things they need to know five other things.

And then I'm gonna give them a space to practice the five things. And it's very clear, right? So when I'm teaching, Leadership development, for example, which is a very wide range of things. So let me think of a different example. Maybe something more like emotional intelligence, right? Like if I'm just teaching, I want you to understand what this framework is and how then to take the first steps of being more self-aware in.

How you watch your own emotions and how you can interpret someone else's. So the five objectives may be just something as simple as being able to identify what the four quadrants are, being able to define it or examine it, when it's happening in your life or something like that, right? Like you didn't know it before and now you do know it and can recognize it.

And then it's about how to practice and how to demonstrate that you have practice and how to. Maybe test people on their ability to communicate to another person, explain what EQ is to another person. So all of that gives you then enough to say, well, I don't need a whole book on EQ in order for them to just describe it to another person.

Right. All I really need is a couple of pages. So that is my way of kind of assessing how to not be in overload and overwhelm. But I think something, there's something else under your question, because I talk about this a lot and see this a lot with my clients, is that they put a lot of content in their programs because they're actually petrified that someone will call them out, that they actually don't know enough to teach this.

Like they're, it's a confidence issue. And so they're just like, put this in and this in, and then they'll feel like it's worth that amount of money exchange and time exchange and energy exchange that I'm asking them for. And so that too needs to be attended to, right? That we not overload our learners because we are dealing with our own self-confidence issues.

And to say like, actually, it's enough, because I know if there, there's only five things I want them to have to be able to do differently after this experience that I'm gonna trust. That I'm only putting in things that are gonna line up to that And it's enough. I'm enough. The program's enough, it'll work out.

Meg Brunson: I definitely think you're right. There may be something there, right? We all deal with imposter syndrome. Oh, absolutely. Lack of confidence. . And I feel like that makes a lot of sense. And I don't think I would've gotten there on my own as, as simple as that probably was for you. I wouldn't have gotten there on my own.

Let me say that I get your email, so I'm on your email list and I love your emails. Thank you. I read each one because I feel like there's always. Something I can learn from it, which makes sense.

, right? , because that's what you're in the business of doing, . But I just wanna encourage people who are watching, listening that if this like resonated with you, this conversation or if you wanna know what a good email looks like, I encourage you to hop on Nina's list. There's a couple.

Can you share like how people can get on your list? I know you mentioned the quiz and how people can work with you. And while you're doing that, I'm gonna go check in the Facebook group to see if we have any questions.

Nina Everflow: Cool. Cool. Yes. I'm so grateful that you're on the list, so thank you very much for that little plug.

My Liberated Learning newsletters are like my the thing that I delight in writing. Most probably every week. And so they're just weekly offerings around how how can we practice and embody this? Decolonized approach to education. And so I have educators in every kind of form and faction on my list, whether they are former professors or whether they are online entrepreneurs.

So, so I try to keep it. Relevant for whatever kind of learning space we have or that we're designing cuz it's so much about what's going on inside of us and what are the facilitation, training methods that we can Practice differently. And those are fun to, to describe and I know touch a lot of people in getting them to think about it in new ways.

So you can sign up for the newsletter on my website, NinaEverflow.com. Like I said, there's a pop-up quiz that'll also get you connected to the newsletters. But there's an actual button on the homepage about, do you wanna sign up for these liberated notes that come fairly consistently on a weekly basis.

Yeah. And then in terms of working with me there are two primary ways that I work with consultants, authors, business leaders who are just looking for support from an instructional designer to reimagine their curricula and their programming. And to ensure that it's also comes from an inclusive lens.

And so I do a high level learning strategy, working one-on-one with folks at what their program outcomes are. And we talked about learning objectives. So defining those and then making sure your sequence and your materials are matching that. So that kind of high level kind of VIP intensive experience is $3,500. (as of our 2023 recording)

And then the second level is actually to not. To do the learning strategy, but then to build build out your whole program, whether it's a live program or fully self-paced. And I have an amazing team of collaborators who support me in really creating a new assets right for Business leaders and and so that package is also available.

And so on my website, there's a book Tea Time in the top right hand corner. I think relationship building is the best thing about business building, so I would love to talk. to you and hear about what you're doing in the world. And my calendar is always open through that link to just share more and to learn more from what your lived experience has taught you in these this wild life we are living.

Meg Brunson: And that is how, that's how our relationship started. , I saw you slash heard you speak at an event, I believe. And then was like, oh, I need to know her. And so I scheduled that tea time and we've been connected. Yeah. I think for over a year now. I'm so bad with time. It could have been one year, two years, I dunno.

Nina Everflow: Same. Same. Oh, while, but it's so delightful, so delighted that you did that. Yeah. Oh.

Meg Brunson: The feeling is mutual . So we don't have any questions in the comments, but Jennifer did have a couple posts in there that she appreciated your feedback on finding a platform on doing something different. She needs your emails

Nina Everflow: Love it. Love it. And

Meg Brunson: that she really got a lot out of this session and she said, I have helped people build the actual course, but I've had people who needed help organizing all of their content. Yeah. So this was very interesting and helpful for her. Yeah. And I totally agree.

This has been an absolute pleasure and I want to thank you so much for being here today for

Nina Everflow: You're welcome.

Meg Brunson: Sharing so much of your wisdom with me. And with my community.

Nina Everflow: You're so welcome. Thanks, Jennifer, for your comments and thank you Meg, so much for this invitation. It's been a delight.